| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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Nicole Schnell 
United States
Local time: 18:29
English to German
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In memoriam | Are you serious regarding this question? | Jul 31, 2012 |
Marina Steinbach wrote: Nicole Schnell wrote:
To be a native speaker of something can not be evaluated by any birth certificate. What counts are the years between 10 and 20, when your brains are being wired. Is this simply your opinion, or can you prove this assertion?
You can easily answer this question yourself, if:
- You are a human being
- You once were a child
- You raised a child
- You went to school at some time in your life
- Your IQ exceeds the numeric level of room temperature.
Edited: Forgot an "a"
[Edited at 2012-07-31 03:20 GMT]
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 18:29
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
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Marina Steinbach wrote: Nicole Schnell wrote:
To be a native speaker of something can not be evaluated by any birth certificate. What counts are the years between 10 and 20, when your brains are being wired. Is this simply your opinion, or can you prove this assertion?
While I do not agree with Nicole about the specific years, there is ample evidence that when a language is not acquired by natural immersion before adolescence, the outcome is rarely native language equivalence.
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 18:29
English to German
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In memoriam | Interesting point | Jul 31, 2012 |
Michele Fauble wrote:
While I do not agree with Nicole about the specific years, there is ample evidence that when a language is not acquired by natural immersion before adolescence, the outcome is rarely native language equivalence.
Here is the situation of Turkish immigrants in Germany and their kids:
Technically, the kids grew up in Germany, right? However, they learn German on the street, not at home, and that's how it sounds like. They speak some kind of grotesque German, usually the regional dialect and the colloquial level only (Germans speak two kinds of German - their regional dialect AND news speaker German) that can only be compared to ghetto-speak. Are they native speakers?
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 18:29
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| Immigrants and language | Jul 31, 2012 |
Nicole Schnell wrote:
Here is the situation of Turkish immigrants in Germany and their kids:
Technically, the kids grew up in Germany, right? However, they learn German on the street, not at home, and that's how it sounds like. They speak some kind of grotesque German, usually the regional dialect and the colloquial level only (Germans speak two kinds of German - their regional dialect AND news speaker German) that can only be compared to ghetto-speak. Are they native speakers?
If they have learned German, even if it is a non-standard variety, from interaction with native German speaking peers, then they are native speakers of that variety.
Children begin learning their native language at home, but soon the language of other children becomes the dominant influence and language of reference. This is why we usually learn the accent of the place where we live as children and not the accent of our parents when they have a different accent. Language is passed down mainly from older children to younger children. (With interesting consequences for language change.)
When immigrant children (up to about 13-14 years of age) are immersed in an environment that consists mainly of native speakers of the host country, they will acquire the language of their peers as a native language. When a majority of their peers are also immigrants, exposure to the native language of the host country may be less that optimal, and a new "immigrant" variety of the language may even arise.
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| More on accents | Jul 31, 2012 |
Also had to think of a girl I ran into in the Irish pub in Groningen. We chatted away for a bit and I was convinced she was as Irish as the next girl. Turned out she'd worked in Ireland for a year or so, completely taken over the accent, and otherwise was as Dutch as a clog. I'm not even sure if her idiom was perfect, but when someone gives you the full benefit of the Irish twang or some other lively accent then you're liable to look over things like that. I'm sure an Irishman would have picked ... See more Also had to think of a girl I ran into in the Irish pub in Groningen. We chatted away for a bit and I was convinced she was as Irish as the next girl. Turned out she'd worked in Ireland for a year or so, completely taken over the accent, and otherwise was as Dutch as a clog. I'm not even sure if her idiom was perfect, but when someone gives you the full benefit of the Irish twang or some other lively accent then you're liable to look over things like that. I'm sure an Irishman would have picked her out straight away, but I bet a lot of other English speakers would have been fooled too. Another reason why I'm dubious about the native-by-phone test. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:29
Hebrew to English
| @Liliana Boladz-Nekipelov - the "legal" argument | Jul 31, 2012 |
I really need to put this to rest. First of all I would challenge your assertion that language and ethnicity are so closely entwined. There's a little thing called "post-colonialism" which throws a spanner in the works there.
Anyway, back to the legal thing....
Please, stop saying it's against US law to "discriminate" based on native language. It isn't...or at least not in this context...and this context is all that matters for us.
There's two reason... See more I really need to put this to rest. First of all I would challenge your assertion that language and ethnicity are so closely entwined. There's a little thing called "post-colonialism" which throws a spanner in the works there.
Anyway, back to the legal thing....
Please, stop saying it's against US law to "discriminate" based on native language. It isn't...or at least not in this context...and this context is all that matters for us.
There's two reasons why it is not illegal to discriminate based on native language in translation:
1. We aren't employees (most of us). Anti-discrimination laws mostly focus on employment relationships, not sub-contracting ones.
This has already been spelled out to you in 2007, on another-which-shall-remain-nameless-portal:
You could not be more wrong about this, Liliana. It is perfectly permissible in the US to discriminate against someone in sub-contracting relationships on the basis of national origin, or race, or sex, or sexual orientation, or what baseball team they like, or anything else. It is in many cases unlawful to discriminate in EMPLOYMENT relationships, but it is not unlawful to discriminate in a contract, if one so chooses. If someone enters into a contract through fraud, it is well-settled law that there is no contractual liability. If the translator misrepresented herself when she said she was a native speaker, then she has no rights under the contract (although she is likely entitled to "fair" compensation, which would take into account the supposedly poor quality.) Whether or not she committed fraud is a question of fact. Whether someone is a native speaker or not is not "vague." It can be determined by reference to the facts.
2. Even in employment relationships, it's perfectly legal to discriminate on native language in certain circumstances:
An employer may not deny a person an employment opportunity because that person is not proficient or fluent in English, unless the job that person performs: 1) actually requires some English language skills..... and 2) the person does not possess the particular type and level of English language skill required.
http://www.las-elc.org/factsheets/language.html
I don't think it would be too hard to argue that a translator 1) requires some English language skills and 2) needs those skills to be at a particular level (i.e. native).
Therefore I hope you can see that you don't need to keep banging on about legality and discrimination.
Everything being suggested here is perfectly legal. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:29
Hebrew to English
| The trouble with putting yourself on a pedestal | Jul 31, 2012 |
As "one of the best legal translators from Polish", I am surprised your knowledge of the law in this area and jurisdiction is so far off the mark.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:29
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Another anomaly | Jul 31, 2012 |
Returning briefly to the subject of verified/non-verified icons and the double verified icon that Angie found the other day; here is a profile with no native speaker icon at all:
http://www.proz.com/profile/103909
Apologies to the owner of the profile, you are being used by way of example to illustrate site anomalies.
Just another bug?
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| Hi, Ty. You can call me Lil. Or should I call you Tyrrel Kestler Kendal | Jul 31, 2012 |
This just looks very weird on a forum to call someone by their last name? If you really like my whole name, you would have to add, Ms. in front of it -- if you want to use my last name as well. Don't get offended, please, but this is just not the way to write in English. Nothing bad meant. It just looks very strange. My name is longer than the one of Louis XIV. You could call me Lil -- this is how most people call me. Are you going to use last names of all the people who use screen names? The ... See more This just looks very weird on a forum to call someone by their last name? If you really like my whole name, you would have to add, Ms. in front of it -- if you want to use my last name as well. Don't get offended, please, but this is just not the way to write in English. Nothing bad meant. It just looks very strange. My name is longer than the one of Louis XIV. You could call me Lil -- this is how most people call me. Are you going to use last names of all the people who use screen names? The whole screen name sounds too formal too -- you can just call me by my first name, if you'd like.
As to the theory that a language can be called native only when you acquired it between the time of your birth and 20 years of age, or 18, is absolutely not true -- for accent purposes it is between the time you were born and puberty, usually around 14 (for linguistic purposes), according to some researchers certain muscles tighten and it is harder to pronounce sounds perfectly in another language after that time. It has nothing to do with grammar acquisition, or learning new words. Please don't think it has anything to do with me, because many things are interpreted here only with the respect to gain and loss of clients. I learned English as a child, so I have pretty good accent, not that accent is really very important for a good translator.
Please kindly don't use partial quotations, Ty. This is meddling with evidence. I said Polish and Russian.
Yes, I translate 20% of legal texts from Polish and 80% from Russian. Russian is really the second language I speak the most in ordinary life, but Polish is my L1, so it is perfect with respect to accent and grammar, since I had in for most of my elementary school. I know American law very well, especially in certain area, human rights -- no contractor can check the subcontractor's nativeness -- only their skills. Even questions about age are not allowed, not to mention ethnicity. To check somebody's language competence, not nativeness, the person checking would have to be a university professor authorized by the university to administer the tests. Also the person to be tested would have to agree to it.
[Edited at 2012-07-31 08:29 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-07-31 08:43 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-07-31 08:46 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Natalie
Poland
Local time: 03:29
Member (2002)
English to Russian
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MODERATOR SITE LOCALIZER | How can they? | Jul 31, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
Mostly lawyers and judges -- this is the folks I mostly deal with. They speak English, all lawyers and judges in the US speak English, so they can evaluate translations.
How can these folks - English speakers not knowing the source language - well, how can they evaluate your translations? How can they confirm that there are no errors and mistranslations?
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:29
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Another "bug"? | Jul 31, 2012 |
A "Featured Translator" from earlier today: http://www.proz.com/profile/627468
One "non-verified" icon. I thought one declared native language automatically granted you "verified" status in that language?
The more you look at the system, the more you see the mess it's in.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:29
Hebrew to English
| @Ms.Liliana Boladz-Nekipelov | Jul 31, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
Don't get offended, please, but this is just not the way to write in English.
I know how to write in English, thanks. If I am writing to a specific person, on a forum, there's nothing stipulating that I have to use titles. I could simply write "Oi, you!" - but I choose to have manners. You can call me anything, I don't mind. Call me Elvis if it floats your boat, but if you are going to use my full name, and I have no problem with that, at least spell it right.
Please kindly don't use partial quotations, Ty. This is meddling with evidence.
I have not used any partial quotations Liliana, as you well know.
no contractor can check the subcontractor's nativeness -- only their skills.
Well, they probably can't "check" it - due to a lack of ability - not a lack of legality, and they can request it - and as I have shown - it is perfectly legal.
[Edited at 2012-07-31 09:50 GMT]
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Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 02:29
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| I actually had this problem | Jul 31, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: A "Featured Translator" from earlier today: http://www.proz.com/profile/627468 One "non-verified" icon. I thought one declared native language automatically granted you "verified" status in that language? The more you look at the system, the more you see the mess it's in.
Around the beginning of this thread, or maybe it was Samuel's, I noticed I didn't have an "N". Someone here proved I had had one (he did a screenshot from cache, I believe), but it had since disappeared. Subsequently, it reappeared - I imagine one of the staff corrected it. It was probably caused by the fact that I had recently changed my first pair from FR > EN to English monolingual. All the more reason to be a verified native English speaker, of course!
So, there's definitely a bug.
Sheila
| | | | | Thank you, Ty,. This sounds much friendlier | Jul 31, 2012 |
And now, honestly, American law is really almost freaky, in a nice sense, about discrimination. You can read any employment or subcontracting contract. You slightly misquoted my statement -- I said "Polish and Russian". But, never mind. Do you have a feeling that people who were not born in England cannot use, English sounding to you screen names? I don't really care if my screen name sound English, German of Chinese. I just used this version because this is the most common mistake many English... See more And now, honestly, American law is really almost freaky, in a nice sense, about discrimination. You can read any employment or subcontracting contract. You slightly misquoted my statement -- I said "Polish and Russian". But, never mind. Do you have a feeling that people who were not born in England cannot use, English sounding to you screen names? I don't really care if my screen name sound English, German of Chinese. I just used this version because this is the most common mistake many English-speaking people make while writing my last, Baltic, name.
Best.
Lil
And to Natalie. Yes, lawyers can tell if something makes sense or not -- there are also many bilingual lawyers, or they have bilingual assistants. I also have never had any complaints from the clients that use my translations -- the companies themselves. They employ bilingual people, who don't translate serious legal documents because they don't have the right education and/or experience to do it, or simply, because this is not their job.
[Edited at 2012-07-31 10:16 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-07-31 10:23 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-07-31 10:40 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Well, this is my son | Jul 31, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: A "Featured Translator" from earlier today: http://www.proz.com/profile/627468 One "non-verified" icon. I thought one declared native language automatically granted you "verified" status in that language? The more you look at the system, the more you see the mess it's in.
http://www.proz.com/profile/771341
No verified language, he was born in Italy and still lives there (he is already 28)
I never asked why, he is verified as he was a paying member until some months ago, so I don't know why.
Edited for typo.
[Edited at 2012-07-31 10:52 GMT]
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