| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21] > | translation is dead as a profession Thread poster: Daniel Rich
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Metin Demirel 
Türkiye
Local time: 02:48
Member (2018)
Italian to Turkish
+ ...
| not dead yet, but | Jul 29, 2023 |
The profession is not dead yet, but it is dying. Because the client is dying. The end-user is dying. Reading is dying. The need is dying. And in the distant future, languages will be dying.
I remember being amazed at the translation of a copywriting piece for a perfume brand. That was 20 years ago. I don't see such translations anymore. Instead, I come across chunks of texts, supposedly aiming to gratify the customers.
Imagine an aficionado, who is buying a luxury pro... See more The profession is not dead yet, but it is dying. Because the client is dying. The end-user is dying. Reading is dying. The need is dying. And in the distant future, languages will be dying.
I remember being amazed at the translation of a copywriting piece for a perfume brand. That was 20 years ago. I don't see such translations anymore. Instead, I come across chunks of texts, supposedly aiming to gratify the customers.
Imagine an aficionado, who is buying a luxury product targeting the filthy rich, alongside which he is being handed an owner's manual that contains hundreds of spelling mistakes, grammar errors and weird wordings, that were obviously brought in his native language by a fellow native-speaker, who calls himself a translator. Wouldn't the client toss the manual at the salesperson's face in return for the disappointment caused by the lack of quality in spite of the fortune he is willing to pay? No. Not because he is not an inconsiderate person, but because he doesn't care to read the manual, and even when he reads, he doesn't care about the quality of the text he is to read.
Recently, I came across a translated text on the website of one of the biggest companies in the world, that is known to offer higher quality equipment in its field. Then I wanted to see the original in English, which I found to be fluent and conveying the message successfully. There I realized, nobody cares about the copy anymore, let alone its translation. People care about the bullet-points at best. Now it is the visuals that cater to a potential buyer's spirit, not the copy.
The golden days of the translators, who used to use something to write with and something to write on in their translating routines, are long gone. So will be the days of many of us, who depend on computers, internet connection and CAT tools, and have to face the challenges of MT and AI. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | In-house salaries | Jul 29, 2023 |
Stephen Emm wrote:
I think there a very few in-house translation jobs in the UK now and in-house jobs are not brilliantly paid.
I also very much doubt that the average freelance translator earns much more than the figure you give
I started as an in-house translator in the UK in 1993 on £15,000.
With inflation, that’s £40,000 (46,000 euros) today.
No way junior in-house translators are paid that now.
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 01:48
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
| Agreed to a certain extent. | Jul 31, 2023 |
Metin Demirel wrote:
The golden days of the translators, who used to use something to write with and something to write on in their translating routines, are long gone. So will be the days of many of us, who depend on computers, internet connection and CAT tools, and have to face the challenges of MT and AI.
You could be right, but bad translations have always existed and specifically the user manuals you describe. Nobody reads them, but actually nobody ever has. I can remember the worst translations possible in a distant past when there was only the very laughable 'Systran' or 'Babelfish', and the only thing you had was human translation.
That said you are right that many of us will suffer or be forced to leave the industry, i.e. the worst part of 'us'. I've embraced post-editing (MTPE) since a year or 2 now and it's safe to say that, at least in my language pairs, machine translation renders less stupid and irrational mistakes than a lot of my 'respected colleagues'. You can't trust machine translations, it (luckily) still needs editing and sometimes a lot, but its (mostly lack-of-context related) mistakes are more predictable than the ones of the many sorry excuses for translators out there.
In my humble opinion the coming years the wheat will be separated from the chaff faster than ever, and I'm not sure that's a bad thing.
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 01:48
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Depends on a product | Jul 31, 2023 |
Some products sell better through visuals, some through a copy, and some through a combo of both.
Perfume brand? That‘s 90% visuals when it comes to sales. Usually some great looking model with a stern look on their face.
Graphic artists and visual designers are paid even worse than copywriters, while Adobe Suite and similar tools are even more expensive than CAT tools. So they are struggling even more, for the most part.
Probably not true that copies are... See more Some products sell better through visuals, some through a copy, and some through a combo of both.
Perfume brand? That‘s 90% visuals when it comes to sales. Usually some great looking model with a stern look on their face.
Graphic artists and visual designers are paid even worse than copywriters, while Adobe Suite and similar tools are even more expensive than CAT tools. So they are struggling even more, for the most part.
Probably not true that copies are not read nowadays. They are read, but attention span of an average viewer is shortened, thanks to the Internet and endless switching of focus. Bullet points yes, but you need to know how to present them and what to do to enhance sales. Not good for translators who are paid per word, but still good for marketing experts who are paid per hour and based on conversion/efficiency they achieve. ▲ Collapse
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William Yang
China
Local time: 07:48
Member (2021)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| exodus of talents will be replaced by new generation | Jul 31, 2023 |
or fight for survival.
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:48
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| That was a decent salary | Jul 31, 2023 |
Ice Scream wrote:
I started as an in-house translator in the UK in 1993 on £15,000.
I was a trainee at one of the Big Six firms in London at the same time and I believe I was on slightly less than that...
Dan
| | | | IrinaN
United States
Local time: 18:48
English to Russian
+ ...
| Why just translators? | Jul 31, 2023 |
For starters, numbers-wise, profession No 1. in the world is driver. Millions and millions of them. For how long will the majority of them survive?
Do you foresee the world with a few (relatively) AI eggheads bloated with wealth and power, which they fully control and distribute mostly among themselves, and the remaining herds of little people leaving on universal basic income, also determined by the same above? Of course, it will all be named, described and induced in a 100% politi... See more For starters, numbers-wise, profession No 1. in the world is driver. Millions and millions of them. For how long will the majority of them survive?
Do you foresee the world with a few (relatively) AI eggheads bloated with wealth and power, which they fully control and distribute mostly among themselves, and the remaining herds of little people leaving on universal basic income, also determined by the same above? Of course, it will all be named, described and induced in a 100% politically correct and pleasant manner. A sheer bliss, no one will be left behind:-) The experiment is already being run here and there. How very humane:-).
I do. Thank goodness, I'll definitely be busy elsewhere by then ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Don't tell people that... | Aug 3, 2023 |
Magnus Rubensson wrote: ---------------------------- Maybe we should, but my own experience tells me clearly that we no longer are. I work mostly with documentation for industrial machinery/technical equipment and similar. I've worked full time for over 25 years. The decline in volume in the technical fields is quite clear, at least to me. My personal guess is that technical jobs is one area where AI might work relatively well. Some translators will manage to hang on, I'm sure. But the way things appear to be going, some of us (myself included) may have some rather 'interesting' decisions to make - sooner rather than later.
Some people here will still argue that only the chaff will be removed from the field, and that they make 100,000 euro / year.
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| I'll get round to reading these eventually... | Aug 4, 2023 |
I'll get round to reading these eventually, but as long as translation keeps paying the bills and my holidays, I'll keep at it. 18 years and counting.
The industry of translation is changing, but translation is the same as it ever was. I've had to change to fit in with the industry - now I concentrate on medical, legal and patent work, something I would never have imagined when I graduated.
I'm lucky to have some good clients - I am thankful whenever I get a new, juicy ... See more I'll get round to reading these eventually, but as long as translation keeps paying the bills and my holidays, I'll keep at it. 18 years and counting.
The industry of translation is changing, but translation is the same as it ever was. I've had to change to fit in with the industry - now I concentrate on medical, legal and patent work, something I would never have imagined when I graduated.
I'm lucky to have some good clients - I am thankful whenever I get a new, juicy project!
I do feel sorry for younger colleagues who didn't have the chance to grow up without the internet or real dictionaries - but I suppose they will have qualities I don't have. It's a case of going with it, or change profession.
Happy translatoring,
paul àdie
wordsmith
ES, CAT, FR, DE, RU > EN
www.pauladie.com/translation ▲ Collapse
| | | | David GAY
Local time: 01:48
English to French
+ ...
IrinaN wrote: For starters, numbers-wise, profession No 1. in the world is driver. Millions and millions of them. For how long will the majority of them survive?
Proz is a site meant for translators so nobody here is concerned. There are serious issues that have hindered the rollout of automatic driving so far so driver is still an AI proof job. There are a lot of jobs that are more at stake than drivers, for instance journalist or graphic designer but I don t see how it can be of comfort to translators anyway...The list of jobs one should avoid is just growing. Translators who want to find a new job will find it even harder. So I don t think it s a consolation
[Edited at 2023-08-04 19:05 GMT]
| | | | | Even legal translators are dying | Aug 7, 2023 |
As I have posted here before in a thread I started late last year, I am a legal translator for GermanEnglish with over 25 years experience. All of my work comes - or at least came - from direct clients in Germany, mostly law firms.
Until 2020 my workflow was very steady, with minimal fluctuations year to year. The same was true for several colleagues who are also legal translators for German English.
Then the pandemic hit and, as for most of us, things took a turn fo... See more As I have posted here before in a thread I started late last year, I am a legal translator for GermanEnglish with over 25 years experience. All of my work comes - or at least came - from direct clients in Germany, mostly law firms.
Until 2020 my workflow was very steady, with minimal fluctuations year to year. The same was true for several colleagues who are also legal translators for German English.
Then the pandemic hit and, as for most of us, things took a turn for the worse. But it soon became apparent that the pandemic was not the only, or even the main, culprit. In the background, another virus was silently spreading. As everyone was hunkering down at home, DeepL was making inroads into the translation world, promising accurate and fast translations for pennies.
Still, no one was quite was what was really going on. All people knew was that suddenly they had a lot less work. For a while my colleagues and I were hoping that, maybe, somehow, the pandemic was still depressing our work. But then I polled my clients anonymously late last year, and my worst fears were soon confirmed. Eighty-two percent (82%) responded that they were using DeepL to such an extent that they had substantially less need for external translation services. Bam!
Today, I count myself lucky that my workflow has "only" declined 50% compared to pre-2020 - so far, that is.
A few days ago I received the sobering news from one of my long-time colleagues - a German-to-English legal translator with about 20 years of experience, both inhouse and as a sole proprietor - that he had decided to close down his business due to an utter lack of work.
I have two other colleagues, both former attorneys like myself and even with a few years more experience than myself, who are barely hanging on. Both expect their businesses to die completely within a year or so. Both are looking for other lines of work, and one has already begun working as an attorney-reviewer of German legal documents part time (basically, a litigation support job).
I am writing this not so much to vent as to WARN potential newcomers considering a career in legal translations, or really any translations. If you are even thinking about it, STOP and look elsewhere. There is no money to be made in this market anymore. The only reason I am still around is that I have been in business for almost 30 years and have a deep, loyal (to a point) clientele. There is a zero chance that I, or anyone, could build up that kind of clientele today.
One more observation: I offered my clients seven months ago to do post-DeepL editing work (MTPE) at a far reduced rate, if that's what they prefer. So far, not a single client has taken me up on that offer. This should serve as a warning to those who think that, well, I can always do MTPE work, even if it means lower pay. Maybe, you can get that sort of work from agencies, but now we are talking about rates that can hardly be expressed in full numbers anymore. Unless you happen to live in China or India, you will not be able to make a living that way.
I wish that the ATA would be more proactive and start collecting, and then publishing, survey data on the issue. What percentage of ATA-certified translators has seen their workflow drop? By how much? In which language pairs? How much do translators earn per month/year today? And so on.
My guess is that the ATA knows very well that the survey responses would deal a crushing blow to the profession, including the ATA itself. Instead, the ATA seems to believe (or pretend to believe) that "Ooh, AI translation is a wonderful thing that makes our work as translators more efficient, bla bla bla." That's complete BS. And they know it.
Good luck to everyone, whatever you do!
Robert ▲ Collapse
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Robert Hess wrote:
As I have posted here before in a thread I started late last year, I am a legal translator for GermanEnglish with over 25 years experience. All of my work comes - or at least came - from direct clients in Germany, mostly law firms.
Until 2020 my workflow was very steady, with minimal fluctuations year to year. The same was true for several colleagues who are also legal translators for German English.
Then the pandemic hit and, as for most of us, things took a turn for the worse. But it soon became apparent that the pandemic was not the only, or even the main, culprit. In the background, another virus was silently spreading. As everyone was hunkering down at home, DeepL was making inroads into the translation world, promising accurate and fast translations for pennies.
Still, no one was quite was what was really going on. All people knew was that suddenly they had a lot less work. For a while my colleagues and I were hoping that, maybe, somehow, the pandemic was still depressing our work. But then I polled my clients anonymously late last year, and my worst fears were soon confirmed. Eighty-two percent (82%) responded that they were using DeepL to such an extent that they had substantially less need for external translation services. Bam!
Today, I count myself lucky that my workflow has "only" declined 50% compared to pre-2020 - so far, that is.
A few days ago I received the sobering news from one of my long-time colleagues - a German-to-English legal translator with about 20 years of experience, both inhouse and as a sole proprietor - that he had decided to close down his business due to an utter lack of work.
I have two other colleagues, both former attorneys like myself and even with a few years more experience than myself, who are barely hanging on. Both expect their businesses to die completely within a year or so. Both are looking for other lines of work, and one has already begun working as an attorney-reviewer of German legal documents part time (basically, a litigation support job).
I am writing this not so much to vent as to WARN potential newcomers considering a career in legal translations, or really any translations. If you are even thinking about it, STOP and look elsewhere. There is no money to be made in this market anymore. The only reason I am still around is that I have been in business for almost 30 years and have a deep, loyal (to a point) clientele. There is a zero chance that I, or anyone, could build up that kind of clientele today.
One more observation: I offered my clients seven months ago to do post-DeepL editing work (MTPE) at a far reduced rate, if that's what they prefer. So far, not a single client has taken me up on that offer. This should serve as a warning to those who think that, well, I can always do MTPE work, even if it means lower pay. Maybe, you can get that sort of work from agencies, but now we are talking about rates that can hardly be expressed in full numbers anymore. Unless you happen to live in China or India, you will not be able to make a living that way.
I wish that the ATA would be more proactive and start collecting, and then publishing, survey data on the issue. What percentage of ATA-certified translators has seen their workflow drop? By how much? In which language pairs? How much do translators earn per month/year today? And so on.
My guess is that the ATA knows very well that the survey responses would deal a crushing blow to the profession, including the ATA itself. Instead, the ATA seems to believe (or pretend to believe) that "Ooh, AI translation is a wonderful thing that makes our work as translators more efficient, bla bla bla." That's complete BS. And they know it.
Good luck to everyone, whatever you do!
Robert
That's very sad to hear.
Just looked at your rates, and although I am sure you are worth that level of payment, I am unfortunately not surprised that clients are looking elsewhere. My highest rate, which was sniggered at, was 0.18 EUR, and I regularly get paid less working with agencies. I would make more money doing art articles, but my brain can't take more than a few days of that gobbledegook. I don't see any translator now or in the future charging 0.30-0.40 USD per word.
I feel there has been an undiscussed battle between very high earning translators, and those who churn it out at a consistent level (I'm more often than not, a churner... I am unfortunately unable to spend as long as I would like on some work) - the middle ground has been mostly swallowed up by agencies, and now they are turning to DeepL and co, pushing even the "churners" out of the pack.
Work remained constant for me during the pandemic and even reached peak levels - now I am much more focussed on what I translate (only large jobs, medical or legal). I also have another couple of lines of income and I fear this is what will become the norm, for everyone.
Happy translatoring,
àdie
www.pauladie.com/translation
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| Wheat and chaff | Aug 8, 2023 |
Lieven Malaise wrote:
That said you are right that many of us will suffer or be forced to leave the industry, i.e. the worst part of 'us'. I've embraced post-editing (MTPE) since a year or 2 now and it's safe to say that, at least in my language pairs, machine translation renders less stupid and irrational mistakes than a lot of my 'respected colleagues'. You can't trust machine translations, it (luckily) still needs editing and sometimes a lot, but its (mostly lack-of-context related) mistakes are more predictable than the ones of the many sorry excuses for translators out there.
In my humble opinion the coming years the wheat will be separated from the chaff faster than ever, and I'm not sure that's a bad thing.
It may not be the 'worst of us' that end up leaving the profession first. I'm seeing a lot of highly specialised translators moving into different fields because they have other options - they have taken specialisation to a level where they can work in a different role in their specialist field - and they have no interest in doing badly paid MTPE jobs.
The less skilled may hang on in there for as long as possible accepting progressively worse rates because they have little choice.
Let's also not forget that the situation is far from uniform across different domains and language combinations so a translator who is struggling is not necessarily a worse translator than one doing better. I see this assumption a lot and it is not very helpful. Imagine how it feels to lose your livelihood and at the same time get a verbal kicking from your peers.
It's not a sign of failure to move between jobs if things aren't working out any more. We tend to celebrate it when people come to translation from other fields but label people as 'failed translators' when they move in the other direction. I see no reason for that.
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 01:48
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Rachel Waddington wrote:
I'm seeing a lot of highly specialised translators moving into different fields because they have other options - they have taken specialisation to a level where they can work in a different role in their specialist field
Being specialized as a translator doesn't mean you have acquired knowledge and skills worthy of a degree that gives access to a completely new job. I'm much sollicited for engineering, medical and legal documentation, but I am nowhere near a qualified engineer, doctor or laywer. So I honestly have no idea what you are talking about here.
Rachel Waddington wrote:
and they have no interest in doing badly paid MTPE jobs.
This has nothing to do with being highly skilled or not, but everything with the willingness of testing MTPE and seeing if it is possible to make it work (financially). Being a freelancer involves a lot more than just being linguistically skilled. The best translator out there won't make it as a freelancer without any commercial skills, creativity and adaptability.
In my opinion, if people leave the industry it's not because "they have other options", but rather because they no longer see a way to keep on making a decent living. In the end everybody has other options.
The less skilled may hang on in there for as long as possible accepting progressively worse rates because they have little choice.
The same goes for the less skilled in conventional translation. It has always been that way. The big difference is that those translators no longer will be able to make a decent living because their accepted MTPE rates are too low.
Let's also not forget that the situation is far from uniform across different domains and language combinations so a translator who is struggling is not necessarily a worse translator than one doing better. I see this assumption a lot and it is not very helpful. Imagine how it feels to lose your livelihood and at the same time get a verbal kicking from your peers.
I don't think I ever said that a struggling translator is by definition a bad translator. I do believe, though, that a (long) struggling translator is doing things wrong in one way or another (rates too high, lack of communication skills/efforts, lack of marketing skills/efforts, whatever).
It's not a sign of failure to move between jobs if things aren't working out any more. We tend to celebrate it when people come to translation from other fields but label people as 'failed translators' when they move in the other direction. I see no reason for that.
If I wouldn't make a decent living anymore in a few months and I would be forced to do something else, then I will have failed. There's nothing wrong about pointing that out. Failure is part of life and might even mark the beginning of a new, better era for yourself. My failure to communicate in an appropriate way towards my boss almost 2 decades ago cost me my inhouse job, but drove me towards freelancing, which was the best thing that could possibly occur to me.
| | | | | Failure, etc. | Aug 8, 2023 |
Lieven Malaise wrote: Rachel Waddington wrote:
I'm seeing a lot of highly specialised translators moving into different fields because they have other options - they have taken specialisation to a level where they can work in a different role in their specialist field Being specialized as a translator doesn't mean you have acquired knowledge and skills worthy of a degree that gives access to a completely new job. I'm much sollicited for engineering, medical and legal documentation, but I am nowhere near a qualified engineer, doctor or laywer. So I honestly have no idea what you are talking about here.
You might not be, but other translators do have degrees and master's degrees in other fields, or have worked in those fields in the first place, or have just worked hard to develop new knowledge and skills. It makes sense that such translators might be quicker to move out of translation if they don't like the developments they are seeing here.
If I wouldn't make a decent living anymore in a few months and I would be forced to do something else, then I will have failed.
I think you would be being a bit hard on yourself in that case. If you make a good living for many years but decide to do something else because the market has changed or you're just not enjoying it any more you haven't failed. There is no rule that people are supposed to do the same job for their whole lives.
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