Glossary entry (derived from question below)
Sep 1, 2022 14:11
1 yr ago
34 viewers *
French term
United Kingdom
MA French and Arabic Translator
Native in: English 
Works in: Arabic to English, French to English
canges
French to English
Other
Ships, Sailing, Maritime
19th century letter for a non-fiction book
M. Hay, riche voyageur anglais, et admirateur enthousiaste de l’architecture égyptienne, était a Beny-Hassan, quand nous y arrivâmes, occupé de faire dessiner avec soin les peintures hiéroglyphiques qui décorent les spéos de la montagne. Deux belles canges où quelques artistes britanniques avaient réuni tout ce qu’on peut désirer pour les commodités de la vie, servaient d’asile a M. Hay et à tout son monde. Sa jeune épouse, Grecque Candiate, l’accompagnait dans ses explorations scientifiques, qu’il se proposait de pousser pour la seconde fois jusqu’au Sennâr; car M. Hay parcourt déjà depuis plusieurs années la terre des Pharaons dont il est un des plus constans et des plus infatigables explorateurs.
Proposed translations
(English)
| 3 +5 | cangia(s) |
Wolf Draeger
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| 5 -1 | felucca |
pascie
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References
| BOATS OF THE MODERN EGYPTIANS. Nile Boats |
Daryo
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Change log
Sep 1, 2022 14:27: philgoddard changed "Field" from "Art/Literary" to "Other"
Sep 6, 2022 14:13: Wolf Draeger Created KOG entry
Proposed translations
+5
57 mins
Selected
cangia(s)
Cangia seems to be the English word for this kind of boat that used to sail on the Nile. Both cange and cangia are derived from the Arabic (via Italian in the case of cangia).
FromWebster's Third New International Dictionary (Unabridged 1961):
cangia [It & Ar; It cangia, fr. Ar qanjah]: a long light sailboat used on the Nile.
From the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary On Historical Principles (3rd ed 1972):
Cangia 1715. [cf. It cangia.] A light boat used on the Nile.
From Merriam Webster online (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cangia):
cangia [...] a long light sailboat used on the Nile [..] Italian & Arabic; Italian cangia, from Arabic qanjah.
According to the CNRTL, the Arabic may itself be derived from Turkish.
https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/cange
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Note added at 2 hrs (2022-09-01 16:42:24 GMT)
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From the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, 2007 ed:
cangia ˈkandʒə noun. e18.
A light boat used on the Nile.
ORIGIN: Italian from Turkish kanca hook (in kancabaş boat with recurved bows) from Venetian Italian ganzo from Spanish gancho ult. from Celtic: cf. French cange.
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Note added at 4 days (2022-09-06 14:10:49 GMT) Post-grading
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Stealing pascie's last discussion entry ref and adding it here for future users who may not read the entire (long) discussion thread. It's a great link to a useful source. Credit to pascie.
Internet Archive page with different download/viewing options:
https://archive.org/details/sailingboatades00folkgoog
Internet Archive page PDF viewing option:
https://ia800701.us.archive.org/26/items/sailingboatades00fo...
Internet Archive page text viewing option:
https://archive.org/stream/sailingboatades00folkgoog/sailing...
FromWebster's Third New International Dictionary (Unabridged 1961):
cangia [It & Ar; It cangia, fr. Ar qanjah]: a long light sailboat used on the Nile.
From the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary On Historical Principles (3rd ed 1972):
Cangia 1715. [cf. It cangia.] A light boat used on the Nile.
From Merriam Webster online (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cangia):
cangia [...] a long light sailboat used on the Nile [..] Italian & Arabic; Italian cangia, from Arabic qanjah.
According to the CNRTL, the Arabic may itself be derived from Turkish.
https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/cange
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Note added at 2 hrs (2022-09-01 16:42:24 GMT)
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From the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, 2007 ed:
cangia ˈkandʒə noun. e18.
A light boat used on the Nile.
ORIGIN: Italian from Turkish kanca hook (in kancabaş boat with recurved bows) from Venetian Italian ganzo from Spanish gancho ult. from Celtic: cf. French cange.
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Note added at 4 days (2022-09-06 14:10:49 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------
Stealing pascie's last discussion entry ref and adding it here for future users who may not read the entire (long) discussion thread. It's a great link to a useful source. Credit to pascie.
Internet Archive page with different download/viewing options:
https://archive.org/details/sailingboatades00folkgoog
Internet Archive page PDF viewing option:
https://ia800701.us.archive.org/26/items/sailingboatades00fo...
Internet Archive page text viewing option:
https://archive.org/stream/sailingboatades00folkgoog/sailing...
Reference:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cange
http://www.schoonerman.com/sailing-management/boats-of-the-ancient-egyptians.html
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Conor McAuley
: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cangia / Oh yeah, so you did. The heat is still getting to me, sorry. Nice work btw!
55 mins
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Ta. I did include that link in my answer ;-)
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| agree |
Emmanuella
: S
2 hrs
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Ta. :-D
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| agree |
Nicole Acher
: Nice job on the research, very informative!
11 hrs
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Ta.
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| agree |
Samuël Buysschaert
17 hrs
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Ta.
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| disagree |
pascie
: https://www.alamy.com/northeast-africa-felucca-on-the-nile-r...
1 day 3 hrs
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| agree |
Daryo
: boats used as "floating private residences" in that period are always referred to as "cangia" (if smaller or as dahabiya if much bigger) + it fits the description of that type of boats (i.e. "including cabins")
1 day 23 hrs
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Ta.
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| agree |
tradu-grace
2 days 22 hrs
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Ta.
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3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
-1
4 hrs
felucca
A felucca is a small boat with a large triangular sail used by Egyptians to cross the Nile river
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Note added at 4 hrs (2022-09-01 18:23:14 GMT)
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https://www.historymuseum.ca/cmc/exhibitions/civil/egypt/egc...
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Note added at 4 hrs (2022-09-01 18:23:33 GMT)
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https://www.historymuseum.ca/cmc/exhibitions/civil/egypt/egc...
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Note added at 4 hrs (2022-09-01 18:24:20 GMT)
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plural is 'feluccas'
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Note added at 4 hrs (2022-09-01 18:28:19 GMT)
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It looks like it is not the original text in French but a not very good translation. Thus my question, is this a back translation?
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Note added at 2 days 3 hrs (2022-09-03 17:21:50 GMT)
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Fewer and fewer of the vessels are made entirely out of wood today, however the basic structure of the felucca has not really changed since the time of the ancient Egyptians. A felucca is an open-decked boat often covered in colourful cushions and pillows for passenger comfort, complete with canvas shelters to block the searing desert sun. Made for sailing over shallow waters, feluccas don’t have a keel as such, but a heavy centre plate that can be raised over sandbars or when depth is an issue. Accommodation for passengers is on the deck of the boat itself, so travellers are advised to bring a sleeping bag or blanket for the cooler evenings.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2022-09-01 18:23:14 GMT)
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https://www.historymuseum.ca/cmc/exhibitions/civil/egypt/egc...
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Note added at 4 hrs (2022-09-01 18:23:33 GMT)
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https://www.historymuseum.ca/cmc/exhibitions/civil/egypt/egc...
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Note added at 4 hrs (2022-09-01 18:24:20 GMT)
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plural is 'feluccas'
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Note added at 4 hrs (2022-09-01 18:28:19 GMT)
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It looks like it is not the original text in French but a not very good translation. Thus my question, is this a back translation?
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 3 hrs (2022-09-03 17:21:50 GMT)
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Fewer and fewer of the vessels are made entirely out of wood today, however the basic structure of the felucca has not really changed since the time of the ancient Egyptians. A felucca is an open-decked boat often covered in colourful cushions and pillows for passenger comfort, complete with canvas shelters to block the searing desert sun. Made for sailing over shallow waters, feluccas don’t have a keel as such, but a heavy centre plate that can be raised over sandbars or when depth is an issue. Accommodation for passengers is on the deck of the boat itself, so travellers are advised to bring a sleeping bag or blanket for the cooler evenings.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Conor McAuley
: See Discussion. A great challenge to the answer some of us thought was right. Now all we need is someone who knows about 19th century boats in Egypt, for the tie-break... / Probably not, but not completely impossible. See Discussion.
33 mins
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https://www.alamy.com/northeast-africa-felucca-on-the-nile-r...
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| neutral |
Wolf Draeger
: Felucca = felouque, not cange.
1 hr
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https://www.alamy.com/northeast-africa-felucca-on-the-nile-r...
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| neutral |
Emmanuella
: Cange
2 hrs
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Fewer and fewer of the vessels are made entirely out of wood today, however the basic structure of the felucca has not really changed since the time of the ancient Egyptians. A felucca is an open-decked boat often covered in colourful cushions and pillows
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| disagree |
Daryo
: can't be: (1) it's far smaller than a cangia and as such (2) can not be used as a kind of "mobile house" / "floating base" (see ST) for prolonged periods - it's only good for short day trips.
1 day 20 hrs
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Not true. I think you drew conclusions a bit too fast, what are your trusted sources? None!! Just here to blast...Haha
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Reference comments
2 days 1 hr
Reference:
BOATS OF THE MODERN EGYPTIANS. Nile Boats
BOATS OF THE MODERN EGYPTIANS. Nile Boats
The Maadeeh, Dahabeeh, and Cangia, are all passenger boats, and employed chiefly as such on the Nile ; they are all furnished with cabins.
Of these, the Maash or Rahleh is the largest, and has the most lofty and commodious cabins.
The Dahabeeh and the Cangia are the favourite boats of English tourists, and in some respects they are similar in appearance. [For the engraving of Nile Boats see the Frontispiece.] The Dahabeeh is, however, the larger and more commodious of the two, and is furnished with a gangway on each side of cabin, extending to the steerage.
...
The Cangia, or Elangia, is about 30 feet long, with two masts and lateen sails, the larger of which is set amidships, and the smaller one in the bows. The rig is very picturesque in appearance, and admirably adapted to make the most of the wind. The sails require constant attention and nice management, or there is sometimes great risk of capsizing, by the sudden squalls which come down from the hills.
The aft part of the Kangia is occupied by a double cabin, with a narrow space between; the principal one opening on the deck, and prolonged, as it were, by means of an open verandah, under which it is pleasant to sit during the great heat of the day. There is also a bench on each side of the ...
https://www.schoonerman.com/sailing-management/boats-of-the-...
The Maadeeh, Dahabeeh, and Cangia, are all passenger boats, and employed chiefly as such on the Nile ; they are all furnished with cabins.
Of these, the Maash or Rahleh is the largest, and has the most lofty and commodious cabins.
The Dahabeeh and the Cangia are the favourite boats of English tourists, and in some respects they are similar in appearance. [For the engraving of Nile Boats see the Frontispiece.] The Dahabeeh is, however, the larger and more commodious of the two, and is furnished with a gangway on each side of cabin, extending to the steerage.
...
The Cangia, or Elangia, is about 30 feet long, with two masts and lateen sails, the larger of which is set amidships, and the smaller one in the bows. The rig is very picturesque in appearance, and admirably adapted to make the most of the wind. The sails require constant attention and nice management, or there is sometimes great risk of capsizing, by the sudden squalls which come down from the hills.
The aft part of the Kangia is occupied by a double cabin, with a narrow space between; the principal one opening on the deck, and prolonged, as it were, by means of an open verandah, under which it is pleasant to sit during the great heat of the day. There is also a bench on each side of the ...
https://www.schoonerman.com/sailing-management/boats-of-the-...
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| disagree |
pascie
: Check this out. I believe my source is more of a trusted one. https://archive.org/stream/sailingboatades00folkgoog/sailing...
1 hr
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Discussion
However...it does nothing to bolster your answer, and indeed does the opposite when you consider the descriptions given for both cangia and felucca in the text.
So I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make, but thanks anyway for a super link.
En arabe, le terme cange signifie ' bateau gondole/galiote
le terme felouque 'pouliche/petit navire de charge', ergo
il s'agit de 2 types différents. Pourquoi s'acharner ?
(And yes, I am indeed Canadian, channelling Canadian-ness here.)
I'm waiting for it to come out in paperback, but looking forward to Gerd Gigerenzer's latest book How to Stay Smart in a Smart World: Why Human Intelligence Still Beats Algorithms, which makes the case for beings that think vs machines that compute.
Je voulais juste faire une rime sympa en fin de journée. Bonne soirée.
I'm glad you "adore", but I don't quite understand why...it's late. It has been a ride.
Advantage to cangia.
One is the words themselves. Two different words for two different boats.
Two is etymology (see my answer for cangia and any current FR/EN dictionaries for felouque/felucca).
Third is the boats themselves, with a cange/cangia being a lot larger and longer than a felouque/felucca (see FR Wikipédia entries for cange and felouque).
So based on what we have, I don't see how you can mistake a cange for a felouque and therefore a cangia for a felucca. They're not the same thing.
@Emmanuella: credit to you for pointing this out before me.
I hope that you will appreciaate to have learnt sthg.
A felucca is much shorter than a cangia, therefore these are 2 different types.
http://dossiersmarine5.fr/felou.htm
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cange
On what grounds – technical or otherwise – are you (presumably) claiming that cangia is correct and felucca is not? And with what degree of certainty? I have no vested interest now, I'm just intrigued.
Emmanuella: I accept your point, no problem, but it doesn't affect the question, really. The author might have made a small mistake, stuff happens. Maybe he had second-language interference from Arabic or English.
Ici, il est question de 'occupé à faire qqch.
You can find felucca in any EN dictionary, and on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felucca.
...dont il est l'un des plus constants et infatigables....
Voilà ce que j'aurais écrit.
Trois exemples (quant au français du 19e siècle, je ne suis pas en mesure de prendre position) :
"Comment faire suivre son courrier à une nouvelle adressehttps://www.laposte.fr › comment-faire-suivre-courrier-...
La Poste *s'occupe de faire* suivre vos lettres, vos lettres recommandées et vos colis (petites marchandises jusqu'à 2 kg). Deux contrats sont proposés :
Luz (Charlie Hebdo) : "On cauchemarde moins et on s'occupe ...https://www.zinfos974.com › Luz-Charlie-Hebdo-On-c...
12 janv. 2015 — Sur le moral des rescapés de Charlie Hebdo, Luz assure que "nous ça va, on se débrouille". "On cauchemarde moins et on *s'occupe de faire* un ...
MaPrimeRénov' avec Castorama | Serviceshttps://www.castorama.fr › Services
Castorama *s'occupe de faire* vos travaux avec un artisan partenaire Reconnu Garant Environnement (RGE) pour bénéficier de MaPrimeRénov'."
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/felucca
Maybe a slight advantage to felucca, as it seems more "native" to Egypt, see the examples of usage in M-W:
"Recent Examples on the Web
Cairo residents might have coffee at a floating restaurant or board a felucca for an hourlong cruise; Nile water flows from their taps and grows their food.
— New York Times, 2 Jan. 2021
The felucca set sail without him but with his paintings still on board.
— Teju Cole, New York Times, 23 Sep. 2020
Spend time visiting a local Nubian village, and board a felucca—a traditional wooden sailboat of the Nile—for a romantic evening cruise.
— National Geographic, 12 June 2019
Late afternoon departure from your hotel to the west side of the Nile by felucca sailing boat.
— Jim Berkeley, Town & Country, 5 Oct. 2016
In Aswan, the group will visit the island temple of Philae and the Nubian Museum, drink afternoon tea at the Old Cataract Hotel and sail on a felucca.
— Rosemary Mcclure, latimes.com, 30 Jan. 2018"
What a rollercoaster ride, this question. Talk about learning something new every day.
But it's not a back-translation: "L'Egypte et la Turquie, de 1829 à 1836: Egypte et Nubie", by Edmond de Cadalvène:
https://books.google.fr/books?id=MX3VAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA431&lpg=P...
La felouque est, je pense, un autre type de bateau.
Soit, j'ai compris. Merci.
Emmanuella, you're trying to apply Italian rules to an English word, and it doesn't always work that way, languages sometimes incorrectly borrow words, there are some aberrations.
In any case, I would write 'canges' in italics and a footnote.
A lot less questions are being posted than previously, as well.
I was mostly defending you.
@ Conor - 'Given my question stats', it's possibly clear that I'm a relatively new translator and therefore don't have a lot of experience to draw on. I have answered questions before, but only when I truly felt I had something of worth to add. :-)
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cangia
Basta !
Emmanuella: a happy accident. There's no real estate on the internet, to put it bluntly! Phil is saying that your link refers to a word in Italian, which it does.
To Phil: in an ideal world. In the real world, sometimes people get weary and need a hand. The text looks tricky. Use some of what I call "emotional imagination"...compassion is almost the word.
And like, everyone, as usual, calm down, as the French say, "Nobody has died"!
English appears to have adopted the French term and pluralised it as "canges", I can't find any evidence for "cangies", a word I find a bit weird anyway.
I will hide my answer – Wolf is right, see above.
Also, beware EN refs that show FR usage, like the Old Antique Prints and British Museum ones, which relate to French art collections.
@ Wolf and Conor - please check the plural form in the Wiki English version posted by me. It reads cange (no s) / cangies
Given your question stats, it would be nice if you gave something back, but that's entirely up to you, just as answering or not answering is entirely up to potential answerers.
As for the term itself, the answers posted demonstrate already that the answer/full translation solution is perhaps not so straightforward as Phil initially thought...
Plural cange / cangies
You're supposed to do your own research before posting questions here.
"Plate 3: a cange being rowed down the Nile"
https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/P_1889-0608-...
//
and also from previous question
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/ships-sailing-m...