| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Poll: Generally speaking, where do you think translation should be placed between Science and Art? Thread poster: ProZ.com Staff
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Christopher Schröder wrote:
As for Paul’s claim, I think the word “necessarily” needs to be added. As in, making weird stuff does not necessarily an artist make.
Tell that to the Pinakothek der Moderne in Munich and CODA Museum in Apeldoorn which have bought my work, among many other collectors.
[Editada em 2024-05-09 12:44 GMT]
| | | | | Confused by the question | May 9 |
I don't think of myself as either an artist or a scientist. I provide a service.
| | | | P.L.F. Persio 
Netherlands
Local time: 15:03
Member (2010)
English to Italian
+ ...
| Ars longa, vita brevis | May 9 |
Lingua 5B wrote:
Why is art at the top of hierarchy? I don't see it that way. If done professionally, art is quite difficult/demanding/tiring and often poorly paid, I'd never put it at the top.
[Edited at 2024-05-09 11:50 GMT]
Industrial design, applied arts and crafts produce useful objects (often, quite beautiful ones), but their scope is defined, maybe even limited, by their functionality.
Art is at the top of the hierarchy – whatever purposes this hierarchy serves – because it's the highest point to which craft can be stretched, and because it is for itself, as in God's assertion I am that I am. (Exodus iii-14, King James.)
As Rachel rightly states, as translators we provide a service. Translation is an ancient craft, from which the relatively modern science of traductology is derived. Like for all other crafts, it's best learned while practising it. Personally, I see myself neither as a scientist, nor as an artist, rather as a craftswoman. But I think that the best examples of literary and poetry translation are works of art.
When confronted with these matters, I always refer to a higher authority, that of my favourite author, Vladimir Nabokov: “From my point of view, any outstanding work of art is a fantasy insofar as it reflects the unique world of a unique individual.* Art is not just simple arithmetic, it's a delicate calculus. Keep in mind the passion of the scientist and the precision of the artist.˝
* (emphasis mine)
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 15:03
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
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True, a musician plays a wonderful melody showing us their skill and craft.
But, here is why we need a good knowledge of physics when manufacturing musical instruments:
“All musical instruments create sound by causing matter to vibrate. The vibrations start sound waves moving through the air. Most musical instruments use resonance to amplify the sound waves and make the sounds louder. Resonance occurs when an object vibrates in response to sound waves of a certain fr... See more True, a musician plays a wonderful melody showing us their skill and craft.
But, here is why we need a good knowledge of physics when manufacturing musical instruments:
“All musical instruments create sound by causing matter to vibrate. The vibrations start sound waves moving through the air. Most musical instruments use resonance to amplify the sound waves and make the sounds louder. Resonance occurs when an object vibrates in response to sound waves of a certain frequency.”
From: https://www.ck12.org/physics/musical-instruments/lesson/musical-instruments-ms-ps/#:~:text=All%20musical%20instruments%20create%20sound,waves%20of%20a%20certain%20frequency.
So, without science, a musician wouldn't have an instrument to play. ▲ Collapse
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But musical instruments predate science as such.
Plus I can play a tune on half-empty beer bottles or oil drums without knowing how it works.
The only science in my work is in the computer tools I use. I could do my art just as well without them.
| | | | P.L.F. Persio
Netherlands
Local time: 15:03
Member (2010)
English to Italian
+ ...
| Tout se tient, Biljana | May 9 |
Artists need tools to create, science and technology provide those tools, and that's how human ingenuity supports itself, using both cerebral hemispheres.
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 15:03
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Christopher Schröder wrote: But musical instruments predate science as such. Plus I can play a tune on half-empty beer bottles or oil drums without knowing how it works. The only science in my work is in the computer tools I use. I could do my art just as well without them.
You can use it, but you can’t make money without a computer. How and where would you use it without any tech support, while stile making money? Will need at least a printer.
Just like a musician can’t make money while playing on can of beer, but can with a band playing fine-tuned instruments and a bunch of speakers, amplifiers and technical support.
I thought I already made it clear when I said “doing it professionally” in my comment, so not sure where ancient improv instruments came from. Comment for a comment’s sake.
| | | | | Apprentice, journeyman, master | May 9 |
What does translation have to do with science? There's no place here for the scientific method. It's about how to apply the scientific method in a specific context, which necessarily takes a creative mind to accomplish. Take positivism: it even has a hard time thinking about past events: they don't exist today, so you can't use a chicken to measure them. Craft to art, that's the only way to go about our trade. You can study translation rigorously (if it's possible), and then you'll be doing scie... See more What does translation have to do with science? There's no place here for the scientific method. It's about how to apply the scientific method in a specific context, which necessarily takes a creative mind to accomplish. Take positivism: it even has a hard time thinking about past events: they don't exist today, so you can't use a chicken to measure them. Craft to art, that's the only way to go about our trade. You can study translation rigorously (if it's possible), and then you'll be doing science ▲ Collapse
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Lingua 5B wrote:
Just like a musician can’t make money while playing on can of beer, but can with a band playing fine-tuned instruments and a bunch of speakers, amplifiers and technical support.
I thought I already made it clear when I said “doing it professionally” in my comment, so not sure where ancient improv instruments came from. Comment for a comment’s sake.
Ooh, getting schooled by the master!
I’m afraid that your point about music simply doesn’t stack up. I used to make money blowing into an 18th century lump of wood. No science. Art. Fact.
Similarly I translate without science. I may use tools but my input is art, not science.
| | | | | nor art, nor science | May 9 |
For starters, this is the second time I am answering this thread. I was almost ready with the first one when Proz disappeared miraculously from my screen. Talking about bugs (but that is another topic).
To get back, I totally agree with Liena, translation is a craft.
I am Dutch, so lets take Rembrandt for example, nowadays one of the most famous painters in the world. But in his time, Master Rembrandt, as he was called, never thought of himself as an artist. He was (as ... See more For starters, this is the second time I am answering this thread. I was almost ready with the first one when Proz disappeared miraculously from my screen. Talking about bugs (but that is another topic).
To get back, I totally agree with Liena, translation is a craft.
I am Dutch, so lets take Rembrandt for example, nowadays one of the most famous painters in the world. But in his time, Master Rembrandt, as he was called, never thought of himself as an artist. He was (as we call it) a 'bread painter' (= he had to paint for a living, just like you had shoemakers who had to make shoes, and carpenters, bricklayers, bakers, and do I know what), in short, a craftsman.
He was commissioned and did the job (sounds familiar?). Today his work can be found in museums all over the world. I am just wondering, how many of us think that his/her translation(s) in an odd 200 - 300 years will be exhibited?
About science. This is an enigma for me in this context. I agree with Chris. I am using 'science' invented by other people, science like computers, software and the use of electricity, to name a few. I don't invent anything, like new languages and/or words, and if I do invent a new word, it's nor art, nor science, it is at the most 'creativity'.
So I think that the naming of this pole is again vague, like many, many others.
PS) Piece of information. Back in the 1600's the client wasn't satisfied with what is now considered as the most famous work of Rembrandt, namely the Nightwatch, but they didn't had 'proofpainters' then.
[Edited at 2024-05-09 17:29 GMT]
[Edited at 2024-05-09 17:31 GMT]
[Edited at 2024-05-09 17:33 GMT]
[Edited at 2024-05-09 20:16 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 15:03
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
In 1600s nobody was aware of the “most famous” work or most famous anything as the concept of marketing didn’t exist. When art dealers emerged, one of the tools in their sales arsenal was to name something most famous and to write sales stories.
Translations I work on are not there to entertain tourist crowds in museums, they are not “published”, they are rather used and have functional value and purpose.
Classics like Tolstoy or Shakespeare are used in... See more In 1600s nobody was aware of the “most famous” work or most famous anything as the concept of marketing didn’t exist. When art dealers emerged, one of the tools in their sales arsenal was to name something most famous and to write sales stories.
Translations I work on are not there to entertain tourist crowds in museums, they are not “published”, they are rather used and have functional value and purpose.
Classics like Tolstoy or Shakespeare are used in my country mostly in versions translated 100 years ago.
“Such was the case with the first English War and Peace, Clara Bell's, which came out in 1886. Shortly thereafter, the American translator Nathan Haskell Dole published Anna Karenina (1886; 1887) and War and Peace (1889) on both sides of the Atlantic as part of his multi-volume Tolstoy series.“
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/tolstoy-in-context/tolstoy-in-english-translation/D5C73AEEC1FF76C49620FD5CE109C9E7#:~:text=Such%20was%20the%20case%20with,his%20multi-volume%20Tolstoy%20series.
[Edited at 2024-05-09 17:45 GMT]
[Edited at 2024-05-09 17:48 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Lingua 5B wrote:
In 1600s nobody was aware of the “most famous” work or most famous anything as the concept of marketing didn’t exist.
I am not sure if I understand you correctly. This is exactly what I meant, and to avoid confusion I said 'what is now considered as....'
Or....?
[Edited at 2024-05-09 17:58 GMT]
[Edited at 2024-05-09 17:58 GMT]
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Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 15:03
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Back then nothing was labeled “most famous”, and today many things are “most famous - painter, best actress, most beautiful woman in the world”, etc. all these things are due to marketing. We didn’t have marketing and mass media in 1600s (I wish I could spend 1 day back in 1600s).
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Lingua 5B wrote:
Back then nothing was labeled “most famous”, and today many things are “most famous - painter, best actress, most beautiful woman in the world”, etc. all these things are due to marketing. We didn’t have marketing and mass media in 1600s (I wish I could spend 1 day back in 1600s).
Sorry, but I think you missed my point. Please read what I said before the point of information, that is my argument. The last part is just an anecdote.
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 15:03
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
That’s my opinion. It’s about marketing and branding. That’s how one painter ends up in schoolbooks and is constantly talked about and some other isn’t (exposure and marketing). Sorry I can’t provide a more romantic or more sensationalistic explanation or reasoning.
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