ProZ.com Translation Forums

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | Freelance translator perspective

Jeff Allen — Sat, 01 Oct 2011 05:04:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: Jeff Allen
Post title: Freelance translator perspective

[quote]Drew MacFadyen wrote:
We are happy to include translators on panels and discussions. It's something we've been trying to do without success. Freelance translators that are willing to participate in the debate should contact me directly. That said a number of the panelists have also been translators.
[/quote]

Hi Drew,

I've had a similar experience over the past decade when I invited "many" professional translators and translation agencies to participate in panel sessions for several conferences related to the topic of MT. It has often ended up that I participated on the panels from the translator perspective since I've had much experience in that area, yet mainly because it was difficult to convince individuals and translation agencies (LSPs) to participate. In those cases, there was a factor that can be understood. For agencies or professional translators to participate, it meant taking the time off of productive translation jobs (revenue-bearing time) or putting conference attendance budget (usually related to marketing/sales/business development) to attend such in-person conferences. And it is not surprising that there were so many negative responses.

It is different for such a virtual conference from the budget perspective.

One other angle which I've explained in various online discussion forums is that there are several types of groups taking different positions on this debatable topic (after of course filtering out a good majority of those who are still in wait-and-see mode):
1) those who use MT and are willing to say it publicly and even talk about it
2) those who use MT and don't want to give any details on how they are doing it
2) those who use MT as an internal process but do not want to say it publicly in order to not get tagged and labelled as being on the dark side of the force (and potentially losing customers because of the negative reputation of MT)
3) those who consistently speak against MT (and quite often without any practical experience in it)

However, it is good to see more participation from different perspectives over time.

Jeff

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | TAUS is the translation automation user society

Drew MacFadyen — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 13:53:00 +0000

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | Pangeanic - i show you as registered

Drew MacFadyen — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 13:52:00 +0000

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | Pangeanic - cannot enter debate

Pangeanic — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 12:57:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: Pangeanic
Post title: Pangeanic - cannot enter debate

We are TAUS members and MT developers, but cannot enter the debate. What can be done to have access? I see other TAUS members have had the same problem.

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | What is TAUS?

Oleg Delendyk — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 12:55:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: Oleg Delendyk
Post title: What is TAUS?

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Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | Freedom of information and language as a 'living evolving organism' - Cf. JMD and Michael Beijer

Stephen Reader — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 01:01:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: Stephen Reader
Post title: Freedom of information and language as a 'living evolving organism' - Cf. JMD and Michael Beijer

With JMD and Michael Beijer.- Just to second that line of argument where terms are concerned. Cf. the (in)famous plant/gene patents issue. By analogy - do we want to apply for a licence or face prosecution (or lend that mental set credence) every time we even think of the noun, 'neem'?

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | Cannot find Aurora's registration either

Coti — Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:37:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: Coti
Post title: Cannot find Aurora's registration either

I have just made the same search (for Aurora) and her name does not come up.
Regards,
Elizabeth Casals

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | Freelance translator perspective

Drew MacFadyen — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 13:35:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: Drew MacFadyen
Post title: Freelance translator perspective

Thank you all for your comments and input.

We are happy to include translators on panels and discussions. It's something we've been trying to do without success. Freelance translators that are willing to participate in the debate should contact me directly. That said a number of the panelists have also been translators.

We expect that there will be people with deep reservations among the participants. And as these are interactive sessions, we hope there will be ample opportunity to have all views expressed. In the end of course it's participants votes that will decide whether motions are passed or not!

Regards,

Drew

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | Issues with search

Drew MacFadyen — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 12:33:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: Drew MacFadyen
Post title: Issues with search

That's strange - I am able to search and find Aurora properly, but when pseudo logged as you Katalin I cannot. Not sure why search is working for some and not others. We will fix this straight away - thanks for letting me know.

Drew

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | Invite Jaron Lanier to the debate!

BeaDeer (X) — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 12:05:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: BeaDeer (X)
Post title: Invite Jaron Lanier to the debate!

If the organisers of this "great translation debate" wanted to make it interesting, an open and thoughtful debate, they should invite Jaron Lanier to the discussion. He is the one person I would love to hear in this setting and would pay to join the debate.

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | Cannot find Aurora's registration either

Pablo Julián Davis — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 11:56:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: Pablo Julián Davis
Post title: Cannot find Aurora's registration either

I registered in the last half-hour, and my name shows up via the registrants search. Out of curiosity, I searched for Aurora via both given name and surname (the latter w/ and w/o accent), and she does not appear as a registrant. I can also confirm that on the second page of the advanced search using Argentina as criterion, the criterion has been 'forgotten' and the general list of 1,000+ participants is what appears.
Both out of concern for a colleague, and wishing for my own part to be able to access a reliable, complete list of registrants, I would very much like to see a solution found to this problem.
Thanks!

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | Help with registration

Aurora Humarán — Wed, 14 Sep 2011 22:18:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: Aurora Humarán
Post title: Help with registration

[quote]Drew MacFadyen wrote:

Hi Aurora, I did a search for "Aurora" at [url removed] and your name did come up - so you are registered, and should be all set to go.

Thanks

Drew [/quote]

Hi Drew,

Can you please indicate in which page you see me? I seem not to be in the list. (I have also tried with Humaran [without accent] but that does not work either).
Thanks for your help.

Au

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | 'All words are in the public domain.' Michael Beijer

Michael Beijer — Wed, 14 Sep 2011 19:06:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: Michael Beijer
Post title: 'All words are in the public domain.' Michael Beijer

[quote] But there isn't a single NDA that I have signed in the past fifteen years with commercial clients which does not include terminology. Uploading of any kind of material to the web or sharing TMs is completely out of the question.
[/quote]

As far as I know there is no way to copyright terminology. That is: bilingual glossaries, consisting of lists of words. Problems arise when there are definitions of these words/terms ...

When I translate a text for a client, I wouldn't go so far as to say that the TM is mine, because, after all, the source material was and remains theirs. However, the glossaries that I create when working on a project are mine, to do with as I please. Which, in my case means: give away for free, as I am a firm believer in free information.

Michael

[Edited at 2011-09-14 19:08 GMT]

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | I suggest a shift of focus, from TMs---> TERMINOLOGY.

BeaDeer (X) — Wed, 14 Sep 2011 13:55:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: BeaDeer (X)
Post title: I suggest a shift of focus, from TMs---> TERMINOLOGY.

[quote]Michael Beijer wrote:

Yes, it does seem to keep coming back to that problem. My personal opinion is that people like TAUS, and MyMemory, etc. should perhaps shift their focus from TM to TERM BASES.

That is, from TM --> terminology.

That way they could still feed their machines, and no one would have to worry about legal issues. [/quote]

This is possible for content translated with taxpayers' money. But there isn't a single NDA that I have signed in the past fifteen years with commercial clients which does not include terminology. Uploading of any kind of material to the web or sharing TMs is completely out of the question.

And of course there is the question of intellectual property that is never discussed when it comes to "TM sharing". Under the EU law, a TM belongs to the person or company that has created it. Even in the US one has to agree to sign away (give or sell) one's ownership rights ("work for hire"). The "sweat of the brow" doctrine applies: whoever invests time, money and effort into building a data base, owns the thing. Have you paid for your CAT? If yes, you own the product that you have built with your work. Even if you signed no NDAs regarding terminology, "sharing" TMs means giving away, for free, what you have *worked* to create, so that somebody else may make a profit.

It would seem that freelancers often aren't aware of these implications. Even when they are, they perceive themselves as powerless - the global translation brokering companies have cornered the market and have the upper hand.

I would ask why are legal aspects consistently ignored, left out of such debates?

A legal representative of SDL Trados admitted a few years ago at a FIT conference that, yes, a translator may stand by his or her ownership rights, but that this would cost a translator jobs. Does this mean that we should accept "might makes right" as an axiom?

Years ago I was offered to head a local branch of one of the big international translation brokers. The most significant thing for me was when the founder of the company said "well, translators should get as much as 40% of the price; in return, they will get as much work as they can accept". I replied that working in a sweatshop wasn't my idea of a decent life.

We are NOT gadgets, Jaron Lanier has a point there! Translation requires much skill and expertise, years of study and work. Language changes as culture and technology change. Machines will not be able to replace a human. Not in the long run. Machine translation has its specialised purposes, of course, such as in quickly sifting through large amounts of intelligence data.

But the focus of this particular debate should really be on us, our role in the global world.
We should resist being corralled into (or by) the hive mind.

We should refuse to be commoditized - this is what this debate is really about.

Peace to you all :-)

[Edited at 2011-09-14 14:42 GMT]

[Edited at 2011-09-14 14:48 GMT]

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | Still have problems

Aurora Humarán — Wed, 14 Sep 2011 03:56:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: Aurora Humarán
Post title: Still have problems

[quote]Drew MacFadyen wrote:

Hi Aurora, I did a search for "Aurora" at [url removed] and your name did come up - so you are registered, and should be all set to go.

Thanks

Drew [/quote]

Thanks, Drew, but I still cannot find my name.

I got the exact same results Katalin is commenting. I will appreciate your help with this.

Au

ps: in which page do you see me?

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | Search does not work right

Katalin McClure — Wed, 14 Sep 2011 02:11:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: Katalin McClure
Post title: Search does not work right

Drew,
Please do look into this, as the search does not seem to work OK.
I could not find Aurora either, neither by first name, nor by last name.
Then I tried the Advanced Search, and selected Argentina as the Country.
The search found 39 registrants, 20 of them displayed on the first page - Aurora was not among them, so I clicked the "Next" button. To my surprise, it did not continue the Argentina list, but simply displayed ALL registrants (976), in other words, it completely "forgot" the search criteria.
I tested this for another country, France, same problem. It doesn't matter if I use the "Next" button, or "2" to go to the next page, it always goes back to the full list.

Katalin

[Edited at 2011-09-14 02:12 GMT]

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | Aurora, you are registered

Drew MacFadyen — Wed, 14 Sep 2011 01:20:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: Drew MacFadyen
Post title: Aurora, you are registered

Hi Aurora, I did a search for "Aurora" at [url removed] and your name did come up - so you are registered, and should be all set to go.

Thanks

Drew

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | I cannot find my name

Aurora Humarán — Tue, 13 Sep 2011 21:31:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: Aurora Humarán
Post title: I cannot find my name

Hi! I had registered (and paid, of course) when you originally posted this event, but cannot find my name now. Have tried with the SEARCH option either with Aurora and Humarán, but I cannot find my name in the list.

Thanks for your help with this.

Au

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | I suggest a shift of focus, from TMs---> TERMINOLOGY.

Michael Beijer — Tue, 13 Sep 2011 13:38:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: Michael Beijer
Post title: I suggest a shift of focus, from TMs---> TERMINOLOGY.

Yes, it does seem to keep coming back to that problem. My personal opinion is that people like TAUS, and MyMemory, etc. should perhaps shift their focus from TM to TERM BASES.

That is, from TM --> terminology.

That way they could still feed their machines, and no one would have to worry about legal issues.

Whether shared glossaries would be of much use to LSPs and their fuzzy discounts, etc., remains to be seen of course... but I do think freelance translators would be much more likely to join en masse if they were able to share terms instead of (clients') entire paragraphs and sentences...

I am presently looking into ways to enable this sharing of terminology between translators, online, via plugins to CAT tools.

memoQ now has 'connectors' for TAUS data and MyMemory data, and GT. The next step is to make it possible for people to share their glossaries/terminology, over the internet, via content plugins/APIs in their CAT tools....

Michael

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | Hahaha

XX789 (X) — Tue, 13 Sep 2011 12:38:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: XX789 (X)
Post title: Hahaha

Not one sane freelance translator is going to share his or her memory with the cloud for free. Not one.

And I'm sure clients love sharing proprietary and top-secret information with the rest of the world.

Dream on.

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | Freelance translators as panelist

Attila Piróth — Mon, 12 Sep 2011 09:28:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: Attila Piróth
Post title: Freelance translators as panelist

[quote]Katalin Horvath McClure wrote:

While I appreciate all the technical expertise that is lined up for these sessions, I feel a large part of the picture will be missing if the "debate" only includes people who develop MT software, run translation agencies, and research/teach about the related technologies. [/quote]

I agree with Katalin. The titles of the panels are no longer questions: "Translation automation is good for the translation profession", "It makes sense for translators to share translation memories". As far as I recall, these topics were originally raised as questions. Among freelance translators, many have expressed very serious reservations about / objections against these trends. Only the absence of this other side justifies the absence of the question mark in the title of the sessions.

Many established translators will say 'no' to sharing their TMs and taking on work that involves editing machine translation. Because they can afford. Because they realize that editing MT requires a different skill set - and that they would not make use of many of their precious skills. It would also change their way of working - and they simply don't need and don't want that. Their reply to the comment "MT is the future" is: "Whose future?". Their viewpoint would be markedly different from that of those panelists who run their business / develop their systems based on MT technology.

Of course, including Jeff as a developer and advocate of MT systems as well among the panelists would also be great - but the presence of freelance translators who do not have any financial interest in promoting MT technology would be more than welcome, and make it a real debate.

Best,
Attila

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | double-edge sword experience

Jeff Allen — Sun, 11 Sep 2011 03:55:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: Jeff Allen
Post title: double-edge sword experience

ah, I didn't see the translation automation track as I'm speaking in panels on other days. I should probably volunteer to participate in this translation automation day as I've been an MT geek as well as a translator in the trenches.

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | Agree!

Niraja Nanjundan (X) — Fri, 09 Sep 2011 10:38:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: Niraja Nanjundan (X)
Post title: Agree!

[quote]Katalin Horvath McClure wrote:
To my surprise, I realized there are no freelance translators on any of these panels, not a single one. I mean people who actually do translation for a living, you know those who "work in the trenches", day by day.
While I appreciate all the technical expertise that is lined up for these sessions, I feel a large part of the picture will be missing if the "debate" only includes people who develop MT software, run translation agencies, and research/teach about the related technologies. [/quote]

I fully agree with Katalin's comment. In general, I feel that freelance translators are being sidelined as far as the issues being covered in the debate are concerned. As Katalin indicates, it is obvious that the big translation agencies, MT developers and multi-national companies have a stake in all this, but I think the people who actually *do* translations should have a say in it.

I am not volunteering to be on any of these panels myself, as I feel it should be someone with some knowledge of the technology involved, and there are many colleagues who have that knowledge and have written about it on their blogs and elsewhere. We do need to know what professional translators feel about these issues to get a balanced view of the whole thing and to be able to make decisions on it.

[Edited at 2011-09-09 11:57 GMT]

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | "The Great Translation Debate" - without freelance panelists?

Katalin McClure — Thu, 08 Sep 2011 13:53:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: Katalin McClure
Post title: "The Great Translation Debate" - without freelance panelists?

[url removed]
I was looking at the sessions that are offered on Sept 29 under the title "The Great Translation Debate".
To my surprise, I realized there are no freelance translators on any of these panels, not a single one. I mean people who actually do translation for a living, you know those who "work in the trenches", day by day.
While I appreciate all the technical expertise that is lined up for these sessions, I feel a large part of the picture will be missing if the "debate" only includes people who develop MT software, run translation agencies, and research/teach about the related technologies.

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | 5-days of events for $40USD, including on-demand content

Sales Admin — Mon, 29 Aug 2011 15:30:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: Sales Admin
Post title: 5-days of events for $40USD, including on-demand content

[quote]Maureen Garelick wrote:

I am not sure I want ot pay $10 for a conference that starts at 3AM mountain time. [/quote]

Hi Maureen -

Thanks for your interest - we have a 4-day program of events that includes the TAUS Great Translation Debate beginning on September 27th. The cost for the full 4-day program is $40 USD. You can view full details on the events here: [url removed]

Please also note that all sessions, panel discussions and The Great Translation Debate will be recorded and available on-demand to all attendees.

Regards,

Leslie MacFadyen
ProZ.com site staff

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | TAUS member - registration approved

Sales Admin — Mon, 29 Aug 2011 15:27:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: Sales Admin
Post title: TAUS member - registration approved

[quote]anezaldua wrote:

I am also TAUS member and has the same problem as mrkpl. Keep us posted about activation of our account and how to register.
Thanks! [/quote]

I have just activated your registration for the TAUS event. You should be able to view all areas of the event now.

If you have any further issues, please submit a support ticket here: [url removed]

Thanks!

Leslie Macfadyen
ProZ.com site staff

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | How do TAUS members register?

anezaldua — Mon, 29 Aug 2011 09:18:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: anezaldua
Post title: How do TAUS members register?

I am also TAUS member and has the same problem as mrkpl. Keep us posted about activation of our account and how to register.
Thanks!

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | Global event

Stanislaw Czech, MCIL CL — Wed, 24 Aug 2011 22:06:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: Stanislaw Czech, MCIL CL
Post title: Global event

In case of a global event timing must be inconvenient to some participants :( I don't think that $10 is a big deal but with 3 AM it's hard to say whether it's better to get up early or rather stay up late...

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | 3AM?

Maureen Garelick — Mon, 08 Aug 2011 15:54:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: Maureen Garelick
Post title: 3AM?

I am not sure I want ot pay $10 for a conference that starts at 3AM mountain time.

Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011) | Agenda details?

Attila Piróth — Thu, 16 Jun 2011 17:25:00 +0000

Forum: ProZ.com's Virtual Conferences
Topic: Discussion for ProZ.com & TAUS present: The Great Translation Debate (2011)
Poster: Attila Piróth
Post title: Agenda details?

Hi Leslie,

I could not find any information about the sessions or the speakers - nor a call for speakers. Could you provide some links, please?

Best,
Attila