Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3 4] >
Fake "translators" on Proz - report them?
Thread poster: Inez Ulrich
Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
Member (2011)
Swedish to English
+ ...
Really? Jun 5, 2020

jyuan_us wrote:

Whenever something poorly written is found, your immediate response would be that it is written by a non-native speaker. I believe you may need to give it a second thought if you do have such an immediate response.


No, it’s almost always obvious whether something has been written by a native or a non-native. Natives write badly in a very different way.


Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
Baran Keki
Philip Lees
writeaway
Sheila Wilson
Michele Fauble
Fatine Echenique
 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:51
Member (2005)
Chinese to English
eh, Jun 6, 2020

Natives are more prone to misunderstanding the source, or more likely to fail to get the nuances and implied meanings in the source text, while non-natives would often find it hard to write more idiomatically.

Non-natives can still do a good job in translating. If you have made it a principle not to translate into your second language, you might have missed a lot of clients in all these years.

Many people are translating into their second language, especially in the US.
... See more
Natives are more prone to misunderstanding the source, or more likely to fail to get the nuances and implied meanings in the source text, while non-natives would often find it hard to write more idiomatically.

Non-natives can still do a good job in translating. If you have made it a principle not to translate into your second language, you might have missed a lot of clients in all these years.

Many people are translating into their second language, especially in the US. Probably over 80% of the Chinese to English jobs in China are done by those who are native in Chinese.

Maybe over 80% of the Kudoz questions in the Chinese to English pair have been answered by non-native translators, and the answerers have performed very well so far.

[Edited at 2020-06-06 03:07 GMT]
Collapse


 
Lincoln Hui
Lincoln Hui  Identity Verified
Hong Kong
Local time: 19:51
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
. Jun 6, 2020

I have a nagging suspicion that one of the top Kudoz answerers in one or two of my pairs is actually a bot, because their answers are almost always drawn straight from random sites, uncurated and out of context, and often obviously wrong.

Marijaflora wrote:

But can it also be looked at in a different way?
I.e., some translators may never have had the opportunity to undertake University degrees in Translation/Linguistics due to a lack of financial resources or a lack of opportunity, so asking questions from other translators on Proz can be a form of education.

If they have to ask questions about simple, widely known expressions that can be found in a wide range of online dictionaries, why are they working as a translator at all? It's like somebody working as a computer technician going on Quora and asking how to tell the difference between a USB connector and an ethernet connector.

Plus, not even checking a dictionary is just plain laziness and these people should not be employed in any capacity, period.

Is it any different from Uni students asking their teachers questions?

Are they paying tuition? And do you think a professor won't give a student a very dirty look if they asked a question that was directly answered by opening a dictionary?

We are all students and beginners at some point of our careers.......

[Edited at 2020-06-05 17:22 GMT]

At no point in my career was I ever incompetent in the sense that I lacked adequate ability to read the languages that I chose to work from.

[Edited at 2020-06-06 03:19 GMT]


Christopher Schröder
Zibow Retailleau
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
Dan Lucas
Mina Chen
 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:51
Member (2005)
Chinese to English
Oh Jun 6, 2020

Inez Ulrich wrote:

Hi all,

in the last two weeks I had to deal with two "translators" who both claimed to be native speakers with perfect language skills in their mother tongue. Turns out both are NO native speakers and both are NOT able to work as translators of proofreaders due to their missing skills. Both of them are members on Proz and advertise their skills here. Would you report them to Proz?


Poor quality could be correlated with the fact the translator is not native in his target language but I often have to deal with many genuinely native translators who deliver translations at a very lower
quality, sometimes lower than a MT piece.


[Edited at 2020-06-06 15:44 GMT]


Josephine Cassar
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
 
Inter-Tra
Inter-Tra  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 12:51
Member (2008)
English to Italian
+ ...
This platform is a "democratic" tool Jun 6, 2020

Hallo to Everybody!

I think we should not forget that this is the largest platform of translators (and interpreters) in the world and because of this....it is also thriving.

This means that ProZ is not an 'elitarian platform' where only the best brains meet and compete.

I think throughout the years we have all encountered and experienced many unskilled, untrained translators (as well as arrogance and unkindness) or so-called bilinguals (with no training at
... See more
Hallo to Everybody!

I think we should not forget that this is the largest platform of translators (and interpreters) in the world and because of this....it is also thriving.

This means that ProZ is not an 'elitarian platform' where only the best brains meet and compete.

I think throughout the years we have all encountered and experienced many unskilled, untrained translators (as well as arrogance and unkindness) or so-called bilinguals (with no training at all) who kept and keep on trying to improve themselves through this platform.
I do not believe that this is only a negative aspect, it may also turn out to be rather the opposite.

Therefore, we should take into account that such things might happen.
It is also not rare, for example, to observe a lack of good practices on argumentation skills (also among experienced translators).

Some exploit the platform " weeknesses", if we can call them as such, in the sense that long experience, sound backgrounds and titles do not play a role in the assignment of hasty and highly complicated texts that might also not be paid accordingly.

In brief, I think that you can easily use the WWA option explaining your reasons, you could also report them, however you should prove their missing skills together with the salient features of the given assignment.
Collapse


marijaflora
 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 11:51
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
We ought to always write "native and/or native-equivalent speakers " Jun 6, 2020

jyuan_us wrote:
Many people are translating into their second language, especially in the US. Probably over 80% of the Chinese to English jobs in China are done by those who are native in Chinese.

Unfortunately, that's what we're all well aware of. Very many of them deliver atrocious English. As we all know as consumers of household goods etc, many of those translations into Chinglese make it to the retailer with no corrections at all.

Yes, we should acknowledge every time we write that people like you and Lincoln and others exist. I've worked quite a lot very successfully with English texts written or translated by Chinese native speakers -- just tidying perfectly understandable English -- and I'm currently negotiating for a really big project doing just that. And of course the same applies to the speakers of all other languages who write very well in English.

But I'm afraid I'm lazy. That term in the subject line is just so long. And there are relatively few native-equivalent non-native speakers of English.


writeaway
P.L.F. Persio
Michele Fauble
 
marijaflora
marijaflora
Australia
Local time: 22:51
Bosnian to English
+ ...
agencies Jun 6, 2020

IrinaN wrote:


but the oldtimers certainly feel abused by someone who believes that he/she has found a meal ticket that helps to snatch jobs for a fraction of a real price and drag the market down without extra efforts.


I sympathize with what you are saying.
Does this issue lie more with translation agencies?
Without agencies support, can amateur translators with poor quality even get far..
I mean, even if they offer clients rock bottom prices, and undercut professional translators (and even themselves), I presume most clients will hesitate to select them because they will assume low price = low quality?

To my understanding, it is the translation agencies that pay translators next to nothing and drive down the market. Professionals believe that agencies are there for their benefit, because they can provide them with steady work/income, but is it really worth it if they are exploiting translators just for their own gain, controlling the market & conditioning clients to expect to pay low prices?
Would it be better if there were no agencies?

I'm only a student though, so I don't know the whole industry - perhaps there are agencies out there that pay decent wages and charge clients appropriate fees?


Christopher Schröder
 
IrinaN
IrinaN
United States
Local time: 06:51
English to Russian
+ ...
@juan_us Jun 6, 2020

It may sound mean but I have a sneaking suspicion that 80% of CH>EN translation in China is done by MT.

 
marijaflora
marijaflora
Australia
Local time: 22:51
Bosnian to English
+ ...
small fries? Jun 6, 2020

[quote]Lincoln Hui wrote:

Plus, not even checking a dictionary is just plain laziness and these people should not be employed in any capacity, period.

Is it any different from Uni students asking their teachers questions?

Are they paying tuition? And do you think a professor won't give a student a very dirty look if they asked a question that was directly answered by opening a dictionary?



Ok, I understand if the questions are asked purely out of laziness and could be found in dictionaries.

You mentioned are they paying tuition - I guess that's part of my point. Not everyone has had the privilege/financial means/ well off parents that could afford to pay for their university tuition.
In my country there is a FEE_HELP loan scheme government loan scheme in place so that anybody -rich or poor- can attend University.
From my understanding, University is even free in some European countries, but then there are some other countries where students need decent money to attend universities - or at least to attend the top universities.
I guess what I am suggesting is that some more experienced Translators may be happy to - out their own goodwill - help out with the questions of those who Proz is a form of education that they can afford to pay for.

An analogy could be like a mechanics apprentice or medical registrars.
In my country, just graduated medical students "shadow" & are supported by more senior medical doctors in Public Hospitals.
Honestly, a portion of these "trainees" look like kids, with the demeanor, mindset and clumsiness of kids, but everyone has to start somewhere.

Granted, lower-skilled translators should not undercut highly experienced translators, though.
Is this though caused by individuals or more so by agencies driving down industry rates?
Potential clients will usually ask for a CV and expect evidence of relevant University degrees for "newcomers".
So unless these individuals are a part of agencies, aren't they anyway really just "small fries"?


 
marijaflora
marijaflora
Australia
Local time: 22:51
Bosnian to English
+ ...
manuals Jun 6, 2020

Regarding those Chinese- English translated instruction manuals, personally I always presumed that they were just written up by an employee of the manufacturing company. I didn't realise that they are actually translators work:0

 
Liviu-Lee Roth
Liviu-Lee Roth
United States
Local time: 07:51
Romanian to English
+ ...
agencies Jun 6, 2020

Marijaflora wrote:

To my understanding, it is the translation agencies that pay translators next to nothing and drive down the market. Professionals believe that agencies are there for their benefit, because they can provide them with steady work/income, but is it really worth it if they are exploiting translators just for their own gain, controlling the market & conditioning clients to expect to pay low prices?
Would it be better if there were no agencies?

I'm only a student though, so I don't know the whole industry - perhaps there are agencies out there that pay decent wages and charge clients appropriate fees?


In the US, there are agencies that have exclusive contracts with different branches of the US government and they provide steady work and decent pay. These agencies are necessary. I doubt that, let's say, the Department of Defense (DoD) will look to find for the best translators, with clearance, to translate a document in 57 languages within 3 days; they delegate this task to an LSP. Same thing for remote (telephonic/video) interpreting. With the current situation in mind, 1/3 of my monthly income comes from telephonic interpreting for tens of clients spread all over the US. This wouldn't be possible without the LSP.

My 2c,
lee


IrinaN
Angie Garbarino
Ioana Costache
 
IrinaN
IrinaN
United States
Local time: 06:51
English to Russian
+ ...
Defund the agencies:-) Jun 6, 2020

To add to Lee's post - no half-decent US corporation in their right mind would be seeking individual translators for their muiti-million-dollar projects; they are not about to mess with individual problems such as limited productivity, human rights to work 9-5 without after hours/weekends, plenty of kids and parents to devote time to, sicknesses in the family, vacations, crashed computers etc etc. Not to mention the volumes they require - if printed, the piles will hit high ceiling. Their machin... See more
To add to Lee's post - no half-decent US corporation in their right mind would be seeking individual translators for their muiti-million-dollar projects; they are not about to mess with individual problems such as limited productivity, human rights to work 9-5 without after hours/weekends, plenty of kids and parents to devote time to, sicknesses in the family, vacations, crashed computers etc etc. Not to mention the volumes they require - if printed, the piles will hit high ceiling. Their machines are working round the clock and require equal response. One dropped from the race - the other one starts in 15 minutes. PM on duty will take care of it. The deadlines are not changeable if you want to eat.

As far as evil agencies taking everything from good translators... When someone bad gets the power, don't look at them; anyone would grab on to power when given a chance. Look at those who gave that power to them, and why.

Those super fat times of Russian oil and gas projects in the US are long gone but I've been working exclusively via agencies for 30 years and my 1099s have never dropped below lowest 6-digits. It's the matter of convincing the right agencies to work with you and not the other guy. Good rates do not grow in trees. No one owes you anything. It's up to you to prove yourself. Waiting for a revolution to distribute good rates for everyone just because we are all born equal may force you to change the trade in the meantime. "Expropriate from the Expropriators!" Mr. Karl Marx, Capital. Not just Russia, the entire world had suffered the consequences of the experiment:-)

Free education? Depends on how you look at it. 40-60% taxes may remind you that free cheese comes only in a mousetrap. BTW, paid by freelance translators without any kids in college, among other taxpayers.
Collapse


Liviu-Lee Roth
Angie Garbarino
 
Viesturs Lacis
Viesturs Lacis  Identity Verified
Latvia
Local time: 13:51
English to Latvian
Nature of the beast Jun 6, 2020

Marijaflora wrote:
Granted, lower-skilled translators should not undercut highly experienced translators, though.

Unfortunately, competing on price is pretty much unavoidable in an industry that is as fragmented as the translation and has a manifestly low bar of entry. In addition, compared to other professions such as doctors or lawyers, there often is way too little easily available and reliable information about actual market rates that a translator is "supposed" to charge, especially when that information directly contradicts a newcomer's actual experience when dealing with many agencies that, collectively, tend to have cornered the market as supposed "points of entry" into the industry.


 
marijaflora
marijaflora
Australia
Local time: 22:51
Bosnian to English
+ ...
cut price agencies Jun 8, 2020

Everyone's replies are really interesting to a student like me:)

At the same time, with the continual expansion of "cut price" type agencies -
e.g., from India and Bangladesh who outsource to freelance translators, isn't this driving down the market?

I.e., will the work opportunities for decent paying jobs ultimately dry up or translators will have to fight tooth and nail over the few left?

While big companies still choose to work with the "more dec
... See more
Everyone's replies are really interesting to a student like me:)

At the same time, with the continual expansion of "cut price" type agencies -
e.g., from India and Bangladesh who outsource to freelance translators, isn't this driving down the market?

I.e., will the work opportunities for decent paying jobs ultimately dry up or translators will have to fight tooth and nail over the few left?

While big companies still choose to work with the "more decent agencies" and freelancers who charge them appropriate fee for their work with the knowledge that you get what you pay for, other smaller companies with smaller budgets will likely go to the cut-price agencies and take a chance, believing that even if they get a bad translation they've only lost a "few bucks"...
Then clients get an expectancy that you should also work for that low fee- because afterall "xyz" is willing to?

If the "cut price agencies" consistently deliver poor translations then this will be a good thing, because ultimately companies will learn from their experiences and next time seek translators who charge higher fees, but if the cut price agencies deliver good translation work then isn't much of the whole translation industry sort of doomed?

Do you believe that this will eventuate or do you have faith that most companies will see through "bargain-basement prices"?
Collapse


 
Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
Member (2011)
Swedish to English
+ ...
Some want quality, some don’t Jun 8, 2020

Marijaflora wrote:
Do you believe that this will eventuate or do you have faith that most companies will see through "bargain-basement prices"?

Does everyone drive a Dacia?


Dan Lucas
Michele Fauble
marijaflora
 
Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3 4] >


To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator:


You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request »

Fake "translators" on Proz - report them?







Protemos translation business management system
Create your account in minutes, and start working! 3-month trial for agencies, and free for freelancers!

The system lets you keep client/vendor database, with contacts and rates, manage projects and assign jobs to vendors, issue invoices, track payments, store and manage project files, generate business reports on turnover profit per client/manager etc.

More info »
Wordfast Pro
Translation Memory Software for Any Platform

Exclusive discount for ProZ.com users! Save over 13% when purchasing Wordfast Pro through ProZ.com. Wordfast is the world's #1 provider of platform-independent Translation Memory software. Consistently ranked the most user-friendly and highest value

Buy now! »